Monday, August 30, 2010

God is Moral? Oh, Really? Simple Challenge for Christians! (Video to Follow)

This is a straightforward challenge for christians, consisting of three simple questions that pertain to a specific bible passage. If you are a Christian, and you believe Yahweh (your god, for those of you who are unaware of that particular name) to be moral, I challenge you to read the short bible passage provided, and then answer the threee simple follow up queries.

  Here is the passage from the Bible:
Deut 22:23-24: If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst. But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.
Now, the questions.

1) Do you think that this:
If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife.
 is, or ever was, morally acceptable?

2) Do you think god's justifcations for the death sentences (woman b/c she did not cry for help and man b/c he violated neighbour's wife) are/were right and are/were the best and/or the only consideration(s) that warranted mention?
So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
3) A woman who does not cry out during a rape is evil? Agree or disagree.

Please answer those straightforward questions. No dodging, no b.s., just straight answers.

END OF THE CHALLENGE!!!!!! 

THE FOLLOWING PERSONAL NOTE DOES NOT PERTAIN TO THIS CHALLENEGE AND CAN (AND PROBABLY SHOULD, TO PRESERVE SOME BRAIN CELLS AND DISCOURAGE BOREDOM FROM SETTING UP CAMP IN THE WILDERNESS OF YOUR COGNITIVE SPACE) EASILY BE SKIPPED, WITH NO DETRIMENTAL EFFECTS.

YOU WERE WARNED.

Note: It has been about a month since I last made a YouTube video. I had planned on having two done like 2 weeks ago, but I changed my mind about the one, and the other (the one for RGF that pertains to the Ask an Atheist Project) has not been made due to my recent Crohn's/Colitis flareup (*sigh*) as well as the subsequent decrease in time available to do so.

In addition to these reasons, I have also, due to recent general health status improvements (save for the more very recent troubles) resumed my on again/off again affair with the gym (definitely back on, been killing it on healthy days) which is taking up much of my free time, and I have also been spending a lot more time with my wife, which is something that is very important to me, since my illnesses have cost us a lot of time the past few years, and especially the last several months. I used to scoff at my buddy's assertion (several years ago now) that even though you may live in the same house with your significant other, and you technically see them almost, if not every, day, you can go extended stretches of time without really spending any time with them. In other words, you see them without "seeing" them.

Now, I understand.

Ditto for the kid (who is going to be 2 in two months....crazy). I'm trying to make up, at least somewhat, for the fact that when she doesn't know where I am, the first place she looks is the bathroom, since I am always in there (and unavailable to her). She can't open the door as of yet, but she does knock on it (really damn hard lol) and call out "DA!!! or "DADA!!!" Hehehe. Funny, and cute, but also kind of depressing at times. More so when I exit 'my office', as I call it, and she ask me to pick her up "UP!! UP!!!" with her arms thrown sky high, and I try to explain, to her confused, super young toddler dismay, that I cannot due so because daddy is in pain and needs to go lie down.

There is also a less (I dunno...understandable? admirable? important? justifiable?) reason. I have been trying to get some gaming time in, as that has really waned again, as of late. I have FINALLY (almost a YEAR late) gotten my hands on Dragon Age: Origins, and I have put about 17 hours into over the last 2 weeks or so. It's a great rpg, albeit with some blemishes (several minor, a few more significant).

Lastly, I have been experiencing a marked lack of motivation when it comes to YouTube videos.....well, as it applies to all creative endeavours, really. The annual 3 Day Novel contest, something I have participated in the last 2 years, and had planned on doing every year going forward, is next weekend, and I don't think I am participating this time around. I want to, but I'm just not feeling it right now. I also seem to have, at least temporarily, lost my desire to engage in the religion/atheism debate (although I did feel a bit of the ol' spark writing this post). I've stopped visiting atheism related forums, my blogging has slowed down significantly (I was working on several drafts a week, now one, if any at all), and I'm hardly watching any YT videos at all, whereas I was watching 20-50 a week a bit ago (mostly religion and politics). I want to do all of that, but I just do not have it in me. I guess I'm just burnt out on both the subject of atheism, and just creatively in general.

So, there's a day/night/stretch of a few hours, whatever, in which I'm alone, the wife and kid are out or in bed (or dead, as I perhaps killed them, which is not out of the realm of possibilities!!!), I do not have a workout scheduled, and I am healthy.


What do I do?

Do I want to debate and/or argue with theists, write a blog/start a blog draft debunking some pseudoscientific nonsense like homeopathy, make a YT vid pertaining to one of those subjects.....or do I want to relax and spend some time with my lifelong hobby that I unfortunately do not have much time for anymore, especially given that I am playing a new RPG that I have wanted to play for the last 9 months?

Or do I want to play the drums (still at that, a bit here and there, still making progress bit by bit)?

These things outrank YouTube vids in the heirarchy of important elements of my life. At least currently ;)

All that being said, I WILL be making a video based upon this post, and very much plan to also make the aforementioned long overdue video for RGF. I hope to have these done this week. This challenge seems to have lit a small spark inside of me, reigniting the dying embers of that internal flame. I am actually motivated (hell, even anxious) to get it out there and get some responses. Then again, when I think of the type of responses I will actually get.......ya, it's like putting water on those dying embers.....

Red herrings, strawmen, non sequitors, one or two people telling me to get a haircut....actually, you won't have to bother this time, you pillars of intellectual integrity, as I already did, about 2 weeks ago. Took like 3 inches off, maybe even 4, and even got the hilights that I used to get (although the way Tracy does them for me is more like a colour than hilights.....just how I like them! So, hey, more motivation, as that's one less possible answer that's actually a nonanswer, if you know what I mean! They are left with one less possible route to take in an effort to dodge the actual questions, which means maybe, just maybe (although doubtful) the haircut person/people will go from an ad hominem to actually addressing the questions, as opposed to settling on another fallacious statement.

We shall see, I guess. We shall see.

Hopefully soon, like next few days soon.

12 comments:

  1. Well that's difficult. For 'morality' we have to delve deep into Christian belief.

    When Adam and Eve were first in the Garden of Eden, they were completely dependent on God but had the capability to 'attain' independence (morally, etc, etc,). This occurred when they consumed the forbidden fruit. This set the stage that now every human is born independent of God (or 'original sin' which is a bit fallacious) and when you are baptised and genuinely come into Christ you lose that independency you originally had and become dependent on Christ. You lose your moral compass but do not require it. So morality is actually superfluous when you 'properly' come into Christ. So in that context I would not be able to pass judgement on that sort of statement.

    However I have not attained that higher state of being so I have the ability (within my independency) to pass judgement on that. However paradoxically I have no right to pass judgement on anything, I should do what is right but should not judge within a context where it is inappropriate. Idealistically I should not pass judgement on that but should not follow something such as that because it contradicts the teachings of Christ.

    But I will for the benefit of this blog.

    1) In contemporary society that sort of action is inappropriate. If a mob kills the rapist I might be lenient and say 'Well he had it coming when he tried to rape a girl..' But if the authorities got there first rehabilitation would be appropriate than capital punishment at the behest at an angry mob.

    2) I have no idea. The OT could of been written by someone who wasn't God. However it contradicts Jesus so assuming it was dictated by God I'd say it was the best judicial action pre-Jesus.

    3) Disagree.

    However you have to understand that by ME passing my moral opinion on that I am essentially 'playing God' by claiming I have the capability to make the decision as to what is right and wrong. That is what makes us 'Adams' and 'guilty of original sin' because we believe we can make the choice and be our own deity and ruler.

    It's actually similar to science. In science you have to adapt and change to suit scientific laws and theories. If you've created an infrastructure on a scientific thesis which has been proven fallacious you cannot continue with the construction, you have to alter and change. With God you have to adapt and change to suit what God teaches; however with Jesus we can adapt and change to suit what God wants without stoning adulterers and homosexuals and killing doctors and being a bunch of idiots protesting against stem cell research.

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  2. 1. It is not morally acceptable.

    2. God's justification is wrong.

    3. The woman is not evil.

    The Bible has a lot of stuff like this. I remember in the Bible where God tells one of his messengers to raid a village and kill everyone except the women and leave a woman for his pleasures.

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  3. I'll respond back when I have more time guys. I want to give proper responses, so I'll wait to do that.

    Just leting you know.

    ....I'll be back.


    hehehehe

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  4. Benton, we obviously agree.

    Vestsao, your response, and that of another on his blog, plus others I have encountered in the past in simliar discussions really make it clear that if one does accept this god, and this god as the arbiter of morality, we will always come to a presuppositional impasse, and questions such as these will prove frutiless time and again.

    The person who believes those two things believes god is moral, period, so pointing out that the rest of us thinks it is horrible just fits in with their "independency" theology, as you put it. I think they and their god are sick if they say that these actions are moral. No one is going to budge because of fundametal, presuppositional differences.

    Argh, it's so frustrating!

    Tx for the responses, guys.

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  5. Well if I could go back several thousand years I would be able to better determine the morality behind such a passage.

    But there's always the possibility that the human element fabricated the scriptures, it wouldn't be the first time, that very same snafu was linked to Martin Luther's reformation as the Church at that time was exploited, the serfs and all those naive to the scriptures were manipulated into following the lying desires of the priests and Church.

    To avoid the possibility of fabrication I follow what Jesus said and based on what he stated as to how we should live our lives I apply those principles to OT scriptures and if they are not congruous, then I pass it off as bigoted human fabrication.

    There is the possibility I am fallacious in this method of deciphering the scriptures and deciding how to live my life, but I do what I think is most beneficial for society and humanity as a whole.

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  6. @Vestsao

    See that's what I see as a big problem within Christianity. There are so many fabrications in it. Christianity has been changed numerous times and I don't even think many things that Jesus said can be completely accurate.

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  7. Well you shouldn't take what I say as 100% accurate and in congruity with Jesus.

    If you're referring to the many reformations and denominations of Christianity which have arisen from polarisation within the various interpretations of the Bible then that's down to the human element.

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  8. You see, this isn't the case with Islam.

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  9. That addresses a different passage.

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